Time Keeping

[FuseU1]

Good topic, & good posts by all, esp. Stv, Dazz, & Tombo...Dazz makes a GREAT point in placing or subdividing the click on different permutations or notes within the bar...Tombo's last post was very insightful, as was the hilarious-but-all-to-true comment, "although counting those 103 bars before hitting this pppp triangle stroke takes concentration!!"
From '95 - '98, I played modern country ["80's lite-rock w a twang"], country-swing, & showtunes w this gtrst who was very good player [jazz, rock, funk, & chicken-pickin'], & he was about to leave the group to go on to other things, & had only 1 more gig w us...but he liked to play on top of the beat, & would often "demand" that I do the same, whereas I wanted to stay back a hair as to "widen" the feel of the pocket in contrast to his pushing...he & i would get into slightly "tense" disagreements at times about it...so one day we go back & watch a videotaping of 1 of the shows we'd just done, & lo & behold, he looks at me & tells me, "you're right...we sound like we have "ants in our pants"...all "top-ended" & antsy, anticipatory; herky-jerky, like we're rushing to [or from] a fire...so, the last gig he plays w us [for 10 days straight], he says he's gonna just relax & listen to where I'm laying it & not try to fight me on it, & we really listen to each other, & he remarks that the band feels & sounds the best it ever had in 3 yrs. ...then he quits the band...go fig.... [img]eek.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 17, 2003 11:35 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

[Dazzler]

Tombo, good to hear your experiences too. It must be hell working with 45 'straight' musicians all trying desperately to swing! I bet most of them wouldn't swing even if you hung them by their necks!!
[img]wink.gif[/img]

Fuse, that's also very true about finding a common ground with a bassist and one that can only be learnt through LOTS of playing. I have to agree that when I'm playing jazz with a really strong bassist who like to play on top of the beat, I generally like to sit back and let him do a lot of the 'work' as far as the time is concerned. By that I don't mean that my role is diminished, but like you said, if I try hard to state the time then it will end up sounding rushed, so I play to his pulse and conciously try to relax and not push so much.
All good stuff though and a VERY interesting and important topic... Now isn't this more worthwhile than RLRL foot LRLR nose... double bass ting RLLR nose?!!
eh guys.....? guys.....? GUYS???!?!?!

[img]wink.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/music.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img]

[FuseU1]

Yeah...only, my nose hurts [& now makes a "ting" sound when i doth smacketh it]....

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 17, 2003 11:39 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

[jonthibault]

I just got Steve Smith Part I (a classic), and he talks about time quite a bit. He said he spent so much time practicing technique that his time was not fully developed. When he was eighteen or nineteen he went to camp where Peter Erskine taught, and that turned him around.

He got into counting sixteenths while playing. Literally singing 1 e and a, etc. Because once you have that internalized (the hardest part), it just becomes a problem of playing it on the drums physically.

He also talked about playing slow Journey ballads. He practiced by playing a samba pattern with the feet, and two and four on the snare at a slow tempo. He would practice fills around the samba pattern as well. I guess that got him used to feeling the sixteenth notes.

It's interesting, because when you sing sixteenth notes, it becomes hard to NOT play in time.

[blake1]

Hey thanks for the feedback. I think this is a very important topic to continue to talk about. I've never really had to follow conductors too much since college, so I'm sure that's a real trip on the psyche !

I just wanted to say I found a quote from John "Jabo" Starks from an old modern drummer from Sept. 1999 that was reprinted in Jan. 2004's edition. He says, " We're human. So don't try to take the human factor out of it. Sure, musicians and drummers may vary the tempo a little. But if you're locked in with the rest of the rhythm section, who's going to know? Tell us where you want the time, and we'll play it there. We may very the tempo, but it's going to feel good."

Words of wisdom from one of James Brown's drummers. You can't go wrong with that advice.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 29, 2003 01:51 AM: Message edited by: blake1 ]</font>

[Nikk]

Kenwood Dennard also said something in print once like "the time will always feel better if you act like you're playing with a click rather than actually playing with one." Interesting. I have this problem with time lately where I just wanna hear everything really laid back. It's a disease! It's so bad that I'll even listen to the heavies and think "man, why is he so on top?" Anyway, this is a timely thread because I find myself second-guessing my time a lot.

[XNavyDrummer]

Recording yourself is a good way to check the group's time. It's been real instructive for me to check out the start and ending tempos for each song.

Other than concentrating on the subdivisions, there's Weckl's approach to let the motion of your limbs dictate the tempo. He uses that "walk in the park" analogy where if you constantly move your limbs the same way, you'll find that the tempo remains rather constant.

I think another helpful thing for nailing the tempo is to have the tune counted off at the right tempo in the first place. If the tempo doesn't groove at the start, it's hard to get the group to lock in.

[Klemme]

Originally posted by Nikk:
Kenwood Dennard also said something in print once like "the time will always feel better if you act like you're playing with a click rather than actually playing with one." Interesting. I have this problem with time lately where I just wanna hear everything really laid back. It's a disease! It's so bad that I'll even listen to the heavies and think "man, why is he so on top?" Anyway, this is a timely thread because I find myself second-guessing my time a lot.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have the same problem as yours, I don't know if you're from the US, but here in Denmark, having that desease is a very bad thing [img]frown.gif[/img]

Well, i've grown up with Bill Maxwell as one of my major influences on time keeping in contemporary rock/pop music, and i see him as very Laid back "lazy" type studio drummer. I don't see it as a desease, i just think you need to musically agree with the band that we're playing with a Laid back "lazy" time'n feel, especially in Studio sessions. Playing on the top in Studio is something that makes the product to "busy" listening too as a listener.

[XNavyDrummer]

Klemme,

I just saw Bill Maxwell a few weeks ago at the spud in LA. He was playing with Abraham Laboriel and Greg Mathieson. His timing is GREAT! I used to study with him several years ago.

Andy

[Klemme]

Originally posted by Andy Vermiglio:
Klemme,

I just saw Bill Maxwell a few weeks ago at the spud in LA. He was playing with Abraham Laboriel and Greg Mathieson. His timing is GREAT! I used to study with him several years ago.

Andy

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You studied with Bill Maxwell?!?!! oh my...

I hear the music of Koinonia every day, him and Abe are just wonderfull on those records - BTW anyone have the live track "celebration" on their computer?! Alex Acuna held a clinic in Copenhagen where he mentioned Bill Maxwell ,but nobody knew him - he needs to get on Tour instead of hanging around in LA!!! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Well sorry for the off topic!